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Post Info TOPIC: சமஸ்கிருதமும் சிந்து சமவெளி நாகரீக வளர்ச்சியில் இருந்தது-பேராசிரியர் அஸ்கோ பர்போலா


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சமஸ்கிருதமும் சிந்து சமவெளி நாகரீக வளர்ச்சியில் இருந்தது-பேராசிரியர் அஸ்கோ பர்போலா
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Sanskrit has also contributed to Indus civilisation

Saturday, July 03, 2010
Ancient civilisations and long un-deciphered mysterious scripts have always been hauntingly engaging challenges to the human consciousness.
 
Fired by John Chadwick’s classic in archaeology, ‘The Decipherment of Linear-B’, that chronicles how the secrets of the late Minoan and Mycenaean civilisation in ancient Greece were unveiled, renowned Indologist Prof Asko Parpola set out on an equally challenging task over 45 years back to crack the script of the Indus Valley Civilisation. For someone who has done a lifetime of monumental research on ‘Deciphering the Indus Script’ even using modern computerised tools, Parpola, whose path-breaking study on ‘A Dravidian Solution to the Indus Script Problem’ had bagged the ‘Kalaignar M Karunanidhi Classical Tamil Research Award’ at the ‘World Classical Tamil Conference (WCTC)’ in Coimbatore, is remarkably self-effacing and realistic. A diligent scholar from Finland in both ‘Vedic’ and ‘Dravidian’ studies,spoke to M R Venkatesh of ‘Deccan Herald’.

Excerpts:
What prompted you to undertake this amazing intellectual journey?Well, my interest in the Indus Script was aroused during my student years. I also studied the classical languages of Europe, Greek and Latin, when I became a student of Helsinki University in 1959. At that time there was much discussion whether the ‘Linear-B Script’ had been deciphered or not. Actually it had been deciphered in 1952. A book on it by John Chadwick came out in 1960. I read it and it was quite fascinating. I was quite convinced that this (decipherment) is correct though there were still some Greek scholars who were sceptical. And then, my childhood friend Seppo Koskenniemi who was working for IBM in Finland asked if I would like to try computers for any problem in my field. He volunteered to do the programming; so at that time I thought we might do something useful to promote the study of the Indus Script. Because compiling statistics (on the frequency with which signs are repeated, etc.) has been very useful in all decipherment
attempts. My brother Simo who studied ‘Assyriology’ also joined the team.How did you use computer technology in this study of Indus Script as India’s renowned epigraphist, Iravadham Mahadevan says you are the first person to have done it?

Asko Parpola: Well, it is not me. Seppo Koskenniemi and his brother Kimmo Koskenniemi, who is now Professor of Computer Linguistics at the University of Helsinki, assisted me. They have been there from the beginning.On your seminal work on the Indus Script, what effected your change of approach to include sociology, anthropology and linguistics, instead of just an epigraphist approach that failed to make headway earlier?

Well, actually, I have not changed my approach. It has been there all the time.
I think every aspect has to be taken into consideration. We have to take advantage of every possible source (of knowledge) at our disposal.

 

Your solution to the Indus Script riddle – that the underlying s a syncretism rather than a collusive view of Indo-Aryan and the Dravidian family of languages. Your comments please?

Yes, I think these two language families have been in contact with each other ever since the Indo-Aryan speakers entered South Asia. It is impossible to leave Indo-Aryan sources out of account. They have preserved very important information of Harappan heritage.

One of 20th century’s greatest philosophers Wittgenstein had said understanding a language is understanding a whole form of life. Has your findings on Indus Script vindicated that insight on how language works?

Well, may be. You are putting it in very lofty words. I think every language is a unique way to see the world. I am using this phrase in connection with the tragic situation that is prevailing now in the world. So many languages, minority languages, are disappearing. At the moment, we are still having may be some 5,000 languages in the world, but very rapidly a large number of them have disappeared. It is just as with plant and animal species. Once they have gone, you can’t get them back and each of them is a unique
creation which is very valuable.

But these linguistic identities, when politicised, could lead to all kinds of disastrous consequences. So how is a harmonious understanding of world languages possible?

Yes. Besides Tamil, there are other Dravidian languages that have descended from the proto-Dravidian. But Tamil has preserved the language structure in a very archaic form. And also it has very ancient sources that are very precious. But at the same time, we must say that ‘Sanskrit’ has also preserved a very important part of the Indus heritage. So, it is impossible to say that there is something like ‘pure Dravidian’ or ‘pure Aryan’. They should not be pitted against each other. I mean, there has been mixture from the beginning. And even if you look at the history of Tamil Nadu, the ‘Brahmins’ were here
already in ‘Sangam’ times. So, they have also contributed hugely to the Tamil civilisation. So you have at least these two main language groups in India from very early times, side by side.

Your next project: will you continue your work on the Indus script?

I think it will be difficult not to continue, but actually my PhD was originally on ‘Sama Veda’ and I have been doing ‘Sama Vedic’ research in South India for many decades. There is a lot of material which I have not really had a good opportunity to work on, but which I would like to publish. Also, the ‘Thirukkural’ (of Tamil Saint-poet Thiruvalluvar) is a timeless book. I am working on a translation of it into Finnish and I would like the Finns also to have it.

How do you see the WCTC’s significance? Has it provided a platform to take forward your work on the Indus script?

Yes, I think so. For the Indus script it (WCTC) is certainly very important, a big boost to draw the attention of more Tamil and other Dravidian scholars into this venture. Scholars should get funds to pursue the studies further.

http://www.deccanherald.com/content/79062/sanskrit-has-contributed-indus-civilisation.html



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RE: சமஸ்கிருதமும் சிந்து சமவெளி நாகரீக வளர்ச்சியில் இருந்தது-பேராசிரியர் அஸ்கோ பர்போலா
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2000 years back, there were no written scripts of Sanskrit, no stone carving / writing could be evidenced. Even, Ashoka period had Prakrit which was spoken breadth and width of Greater India but we could not find any Sanskrit usage.

This is totally biased and unacceptable/half cooked views of studying ancient history from current affairs...

If he claims, Prakrit in place of Sanskrit which makes some sense to believe. Dravidian language is not comparable with Sanskrit which is like comparing Thiruvalluvar with Sonia Gandhi but comparable with Prakrit which nobody is doing so due to their biased views of studying and mapping ancient history from current state

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You live in foolish imagination, and urinate your views against a scholar



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Entire work of Europeans have been keep the entire world as colonies and used Christianity as the tool, as it gave them the title- "Chosen People"- to rule any land and because Bible is such a horrible work, they took Sanskrit with its richness as their own, and called themselves Aryans and I Quote GeorgeBernardShaw- on this 
- .. Bible is hopelessly Pre-evolutionary; its description of the origin of life and morals are obviouly fairy tales; its astronomy is terracentric; its notions of the starry universe are childish; its history is epical and legendery; in short, people whose education in these departments derived from the Bible are absolutely misinformed as to be unfit for public employment, parental responsbility , or the Franchise" in his Black Girl in Search of God- Preface.
Lord Macaulay on whose name our educational system is called, in his letter to his father wrote- “The effect of this education on the Hindoos is prodigious. No Hindoo, who has received an English Education even remains sincerly attached to his religion. Some continue to profess it as a matter of policy; but many profers themselves pure Deists, and some embrace Christianity.
It is my firm belief that if, our plans of education are followed up, there will not be single Idolater among the respectable classes in Bengal 30 years hence. And this will be effected without any efforts to prostytise, without the smallest interference with religious liberty; but by the natural operation of knowledge and reflection … “ 
I have given the background of BODEN Trust in Oxford University- A Bristish Soldier who amased huge wealth from his Indian Service, made a trust to Uproot Hinduism and to enable missionaries to learn Indian Scriptures and also Translation of Bible to Sanskrit etc., Prof H.H.Wilson was the first to occupy, and Monier Williams was the next and Sir.Monier Williams, the editor of Sanskrit-English Dictionary wrote in his other book “Moderb India and the Indians, Page 62- “When the walls of the mighty fortress of Brahminism are encircled, undermined and finally stormed by the soldiers of the Cross, the victory of the Christianity must be Signal and complete.”
The foolish missionaries underestimated the Indian, but achieved in making a small section of Hindus to hate its root- Vedas and Sanskrit Literature.
My quotes of these Europeans are those words hidden from General, where as they wrote them in Abroad, brought out by Researchers, and sometimes the rivalry among missionaries also helped.

Indologist W.W.Hunter has commented on Bishop Caledwell- “ … but in his Comparative Grammar.. as in every branch of Caldwell’s untiring Labout, he was inspired with the belief that he was doing true missionary services”; and as per Caldwell the word Tamil came from Darvidi-Dramizhi-Tamil; and all Dravidians are not local people, but Alien Settlers from abroad, and he maintained this consistently;.
When EV.Ramsamy Naicker- who was a Kannadar by birth for his New Political Party, which fought Congress and enjoyed Political patronage as Stooges and lot of financial benfits from British called it As Dravidar Kalagam; and surprisingly- the word Kalagam is used In SaNgam Literature as association of Kudikedargal and Suthadigal etc; I quote for the benefit of all ,EVR Naicker’ views on Tholkappiyam and Thirukural as below: 
1. “Tholkappiyan Ariyakooli, Ariya Dharmathiye Tamil Ilakkanamaga seithuvitta Maperum thuroghi. 
2. Thiruvalluvan akkalathirku etrra vagaiyil Ariyar karutthukku Atharavu kodukkum alavil pagutharivaip patrri kavalaipadamal Neethi koorum muraiyil thanathu Matha unarchiyodu etho Koorich chendrar.”
 
The words Aryans and Dravidians do not call any race or people; and today it stands Dravidian as Language group of South Indian Languages and Aryan- as Indi European language group. As for the earlist natives of this land from Tholkappiyam to all Literature stands in favour of Anthanars or Brahmins as Devaneyan agreed. Now to call the earliest Aborgins as aliens and was The Biblic Techinque of Divide and Rule, and spreading hate against Sanskrit and Vedas are part of it. FSG need to specify his research supports for his Blind Beliefs.
On Sanskrit and its kids Latin and Greek- I QUOTE :- Sir William Jones in 18th Cen wrote- The Sanskrit Language.... whatever be its antiquity, more perfect than the Greek, more copius than Latin and more exquisitly refined than either, yet bearing to both of them a Stronger affinity both in the roots and in the form of Grammer, than could possibly have been produced by accident, so strong indeed, that no Philologist could examine all Thre, without believing them to have sprung from some common source, which perhaps no longer exists. “

I have proved beyond doubt, that the Biggest Anti-Tamilar but BIG hYpocrite Tamil Apologist Devaneyan had to agree that Tholkappiyam, to entire Tamil Literature clearly refers Vedas and Sanskrit Literature, and we do not have any Tamil Literature, without the backup of Vedas and Maxmuller took the duty to try to Backdate Vedas and to stop the Idea, Sanskrit as mother of Latin and Greek , which he changed as Elder SIster and this I QUOTE 
Blavatsky the founder of Thesophical Society"Inflectional Spech: the root of the Sanskrit, very erroneously called the "elder sister" of the Greek, instead of its mother- was the first language, now the mystery tongue of the Intiates, othe Fifth Race. The "Semitic " languages are the ******* descendants of the First Phonetic corruption of the eldest children of the early Sanskrit"- Secret Doctrine. Vol-3 PG 205. 

Maxmuller who showed himself as a secular scholar, in his letter to his wife wrote - “ I Hope I Shall finish that work, and I FEEL CONVINCED THOUGH I shall not live to see it, that this edition of mine and the translation of Vedas will hereafter tell to a great extent on the fate of India… Vedas are the root of their religion, and to show them what that root is, I FEEL SURE IS THE ONLY WAY OF UPROOTING ALL THAT HAS Sparang up from it during the last 3000 years……..”
Sometime Before his death wrote, I quote- “ Even, their religion is not as bad as it looks, as I hoe to show in a book just finished, I have not much faith in missionaries – medical or otherwise. If we get such men again in India as RammohunRoy or Kesub Cahandrasen and if we get an Archbishop of Calcutta who knows what Christianity is, India will be Christianized in all that is essential in the Twinking of an eye, and on this too we must be hopeful” What I Quote are from sincere researches, not known to commonly, and I Quote from the book
The Arsenal of Christian Soldiers in India – Rev.J.Fr.Stacker- “ I am of special obligation to the volumes of Monier Williams, Mitchel, Hopkins, Wilson…. Caldwell, Maxmuller and others , too numerous to mention.”
In a response to an RSS groups book as late as 1985,Indian church maintains that Dravidians, Aryans, and Tribals are all Aliens of Indian Land and I quote- 
 There is ample evidence that Hinduism is not the religion of India, even if it s older than Christianity in India. There is no reason either Ariyanism or Dravidianism or other religion in India to call the other Foreign. –Page34, Christianity in India- Unique and Universal Mission released by CSI and the same book says- “ Due to Aryan Invasion of 1500BC, the Adivasis fled to the hills and forest and did not integrate with other Indians, ofcourse the Dravidians were more docile and less militant and migrated to South India and Some were absorbed in the Aryan Acculturalisation” page-225. further , I quote 
” The most outstanding fact that we need to understand is that we must know that the Tribals People of the NorthEast Hills are not Hindus by any stretch of imagination, they are the people who Continued to come from parts of Asia at different stages of History. Page 236.
The most of the Indians have been misinformed and like you all and Dravidian movement leaders became a tool on the hands of Church, which in the long run, on Converting they can make Indians as Collanies of Europe as and when Political situation changes Internationally.

TAMIL SANGAM SONG says- a Maduraite Proudly saying, You Chola Capital and Chera capital people wakeup at Cheval Kooval, where as we in Madurai, wakeup at the Divine Vedic Prayers everyday.

I have put with detailed Research opinions of various Scholars on this Vedas and what it refers without any doubt and for every readers benefit I Quote DEVANEYAN again- “ Nal Vetham allathu NanMarai, Arangam, Agamam enpathu ellam Ariya Noolgale enpathum, Thirukural Thavira Ippothulla Pandaiya Tamil Noolgal ellam Anthanar enpathum Brahmanargaliye kurikkum enpathum Sariye. Page- 102 Tamilar Matham
Samaskrithathil thalai sirantha Ilakkana Noolakiay Paniniyam, Paniniyal KI.MU.4m. Noorandil Iyarrappattathu. Ilakkananoolgalai Viyakaranam enbar Vadanoolar. Annoorkumun Enn Ilakkana Noolgal Iyarappattathach Sollap padugindrathu. Avarrul muthalathu Vetha Kalaththathu enappadum Iyendiram” Page 56, 57, Tamilar Varalaru.

The first Quote was written by Devaneyan in a highly Controversial situation, to Reply a Dubious research book by Ka.Su.Pillai, saying the Vedas are not Sanskrit Vedas and that Anthanar are not the Brahmins, In a Illakiya Megazine- and cannot carry his frauds he was otherwise doing. 

IF Idiyappam or others give other quotation from Pavanar that would disqualify Devaneyan worthy as a Scholar, as I Quote; JOHN W MONTGOMERY- : ”One must listen to the claims of the documents of the documents under analysis, and not assume fraud or error unless the Author Disqualified Himself by Contradictions or known factual inaccuracies

I Feel you are all gone by the deception of missionaries and having a closed mindset to truths and hence, such a detailed missionary details were to be given.

Truth always is going to help, not false beliefs even if they are close to our hearts. And for the benefit of readers I QUOTE the views of more than 100s of Scholars from America, from Catholic University- in its NEW CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA"The Beginning of Sanskrit Literature go back to almost 2500BCE, Not only is the antiquity of Sanskrit Literature truly remarkable, but its fecudits, veracity and continuity or no less so” Page445, Vol 7 . and Maxmuller AGAIN- “ To the Scholars, no doubt the Vedas remained and always remain the oldest real book that has been preserved to us in an almost miraculous way.” – My Autobiagraphy- a fragment Page 188 & 189.



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Bethel is a common name given to Churches, every body has seen it every where. Hebrew word Beth means house, and El is name of the Deity, but Bible Translators changed noun to generalise to God- House of God- Like Kovil of Tamil. KO-refers God and Il is house. 

El, the name comes is all Semitic Languages, like il,ilu, and al in arabi. 
As per Bible Lexicons, Seimitics donot have root and the meaning is assumed as Power. 
El is a Pure Tamil word, used to refer Sun and God, even today in Chennai and other places Temples are called Ellamman and Ellappan temples. Some places wrongly written as Elliamman. 
El - is from Ellai Illathavan or Elumbhutal Illathavan, No boundaries for God, no births or deaths for him. 
Bible also uses other names as ElShaddai, Ellohim, Jehovah-YHVH etc., 
ElShaddai is translated as God Almighty- and agains Lexicons say its not based on any base, but assumed and they infer from indirect references a God of Mountains. 
Agains Shaddai-to be pronounced SAddai- a Pure Tamil word, comes in Sangam Literatures to till date, refers to God SIVA. 
Shaddai refers to His Jadai, head and he has Sun and Moon on right and left side of Jadai. Kabalah of Esoteric Judaism tells all this. And Maraimalai Adigal refered in research this. Secret Doctrines refers it. 
Inspite of Maraimalai Adigal referring it, the Hypocrite Devaneyan did not acknoledge it or tried to bring the original word reinstated. 

Ellohim, Hebrew follows IndoEurpean Standards and "him" is a plural with Femine term referring to an equivalent of Ammaiyappan of Tamil, and Ellohim -goes as Allahudum in Arabi, shortened as Allah, all refers to God Siva. In Bible Old Testament, Jacob worships ElShaddai as Lingam, Performs Abishekam and he was blessed. 

Muslims visit huj evey year, to come round Kabha- Kabha Means Black Lingam(Stone)- Hug is comin round -dOING Prathakshan. 

God- incidentley looks similar to Kadavul in tamil, which expands to Ellavarriayum Kadanthavar, and Ellavarilum Ullavar. G- 6th Alphabet, O-d and count it you get 26, that is God is all. 

TholKappiyar says:
"Niraimozhi Manthar Anaiyir Kilantha 
MARAIMOZHI thane Manthiram enba"-
When ever Tholkappiyar refers to Brahimins, i.e., Anthanar and Vadasol, VadaEluthu etc., Kappiyar also mostly tells of Difference they have in Grammer, i.e., Clearly Sanskrit is said.
SEKKIZHAR- Tells us ELUTHATHA MARAI ALITHA..., I jave refered earlier also The word MARAI- is an excellent Tamil word for Vedas, even Sanskrit does not have it, Unwriten.

Brahimins are refered as Aruthozilar in Sangam Literature and Pathrupattu song says- Kelvi Kettu Padivam Odiathu Velvi VEttanai Vuyarthor Uvamba Othal Vettal Avai Pirar Seital, Ithal Erral endru Aru Purinthu Olugum Arampuri Anthanar Vazhimozhinthu Olughi...
Aruthozilar, is an excellent translation of Shadakarma Nishdar of Sanskrit.
Sanskrit was refered as the Mother of Greek and Latin by 18th and early 19thCen, Philologists, which Maxmuller changed by argueing that- a Langauge with Thousands of Words are not made in few years or Centuries bUT Milleniums, hence to call mother is too much and let us call Sanskrit as ELder Sister, is the now majority of view of Linguists all over the world.

Anthanar along with all other people lived together for 5000 years more in this country, but Missionaries in their Tendentious motive, to Divide and Rule-Probagated false Theories and we need to know the truths and accept them and leave false opinions spread by Motivated groups.

Idiayappam and FSG, YOUR views and replies have given me an encouragement to dig my 15 years of research and put it across.
I have met most of the Tamilnadu Government AgaraMoodali (not Agarathi) Scholars working then below R.Mathivanan, the dubious Indus Reader, though not much contact with him, but with most of his colleagues( now moved out) and discussed them on above subjects. I Met them for my doubts in Greek/Latin/Hebrew/Sanskrit and most of them could not read any other languages, but were using the Dictionaries and calling all words as Tamil, and most of tthem do not really believe it, and helped me with books to be refered etc. Even took doubts to Iravatham Mahadevan etc., 

No Tamil Scholar will use any unregardful words on U.VE.SA, as you did, even VaiyapuriPillai was regarded well for Publishing all Sangam Literature. I Want Seniors to correct me when I am wrong, but please do not oppose because your false beliefs are broken. 



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